How They Crushed It

Phil Lang | Building a Business From Volunteering, Bullseye Bob, & Running Innovations

• Direct Mortgage Loans • Season 1 • Episode 3

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The podcast interview with Phil Lang, owner of Bullseye Running, is a fascinating story about an entrepreneur who turned his passion for running into a successful business. Phil's love for running and his experience coaching youth programs fueled his decision to start Bullseye Running. He identified a need in the community for more opportunities for kids to participate in running, and he built his business around that passion.

Direct Mortgage Loans (00:

00.174) There's not a chance I'm going back. Running over lending. Keep the A team together. I'm not a morning person. Most runners are. I thought all runners were going to The real estate crisis of 2008 and 2009. You're better off saying no than not delivering. The youth program has gone from 50 kids to 400. I almost called you Bob a second ago. If you know what you're doing, you're an expert at it. And experts get paid to do things. It had to be a win -win for the community. That's when Bozai Running started. Welcome everybody to episode three of the How They Crushed It podcast. Super excited to have Phil Lang with us. Phil runs Bullseye Running, a local running club and running timing company. So it's a little bit of a unique business where you can't wait to talk to him about all of it. It's got a long history in the sport and a long history with his business. The How They Crushed It podcast is sponsored by Direct Mortgage Loans, where I work, Dean Johnson. Can't wait for you to meet Phil. Welcome everybody to episode three of the How They Crushed It podcast, sponsored by Direct Mortgage Loans. I'm Dean Johnson. I'm your fearless host. And I've got a great guest today, Phil Lang of Bullseye Running. For those that have not heard of Bullseye Running, Phil manages races and certifies and provides technology for people that get out there and run. indoors and outdoors. And he's got a pretty great story that we're pumped to talk about and tell. A little bit of a different business than some of the others we've talked to, but I'm pumped to talk about it. I've got a son who ran and Phil was the timer on many of these races before I knew Phil. So I wish I had known Phil. Might have helped his times a little bit, but that's a whole different part of it. But as usual, we have our four segments when we do these podcasts. Number one, we're going to talk about some things that are going on that are topical right now and how they apply to Phil's business. Number two, We're going to talk about Phil's story, his life and business story. We're gonna talk number three about his sales and marketing story. And then lastly, talk about what things are going on right now that are impacting Phil's business and how Phil's reacting to the market right now in February of 2024. So without further ado, I wanna jump in and introduce Phil Lang from Bulls Eye Running. Phil, thanks for coming. Yes, thank you. Good to be here. I guess first question, because when we're filming this, everybody, the Ravens just got eliminated.

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10.413) Who should win the Super Bowl, Phil? I'm not quite ready to talk about that yet. I'm still mourning the loss of my purple team. I'm with you. So we're both going to say the Ravens should win the Super Bowl, even though they are eliminated when you read this. But running question, a regularly Googled running question, does running build muscle? It builds some muscle. And unfortunately for many, that we're trying to get fit and look good maybe for the beach, it does take away from some other parts of muscle. So the answer is not easy, but it's not beach body muscle. I'll say it that way. Well, you look pretty fit when you walked in here, and he's a little older than I am, so I'm not going to stand up everybody and compare. But how old is Dolly Parton?

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02.834) 75? I'm not sure of the exact number. We'll fact check off but is Dolly Parton, is Dolly Parton, this is a joke, is Dolly Parton a runner? No. I don't think so either. I'm not positive but I'm gonna go no. 78. 78. Does running ever get easier for those that are just starting out? Easier is not the right word. You get better. You're still gonna work hard though, and there's gonna be some pain involved in it, but you're gonna get better. So I think mentally, it feels better. Okay, that's a good answer. You feel better. You might not get better, but if you're feeling better, that is better. Yeah. Okay, and what's your fastest marathon time? 2 .47. And how long ago was that, my friend? 18 years ago. Okay, and are you still running marathons these days? No more marathons. What's your distance of choice? Don't really have a distance of choice. So, but the 5Ks are a lot of fun. And although funny enough, you got to run at a much higher intensity. You're also done a lot shorter timeframe than what I was doing for a long time. So, but you know, you don't have to train as hard either. And I, you know, I've not been able to do as much as I used to do. And so still going to a 5K though, I think is a lot of fun. I would encourage a lot of people to try out some 5Ks. They're a pretty great way to be out there in the community and support a lot of different things and have friends and family come and participate. So I still enjoy those for sure. There's usually food and drinks at the end, people, at most of the local 5K. So you do get to support your local community, support your charities, get some exercise, and maybe even have a beer when you're done. And maybe even a beer. Yeah. Yeah. Behind the camera and somebody who works for our team at DML is Phil's daughter. We may call her around to the other side at some point today. She does have, she helped provide some of these questions. So you're really set up for failure or success depending upon how you look at it. But Phil, let's jump into our segment here. Tell us the Phil story and tell us the Phil story as it relates to how you got into running and how Bullseye came to be. Yeah, so I started running in high school. I always wanted to be a runner and...

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17.806) My first ever race was the 55 yard dash up in the, up the middle of the Baltimore Armory for the high school team. And that didn't go as well as I had hoped. So the coach luckily started encouraging me to run a little further and ended up doing cross country and ended up getting a chance to be on a team that won a high school state cross country championship, which was really special and taught me a lot about. not just me, but needing others to accomplish the things that I wanted to accomplish. And got to run in college and luckily met my bride at the second college. I went to UMBC for a year and a half then transferred to Frostburg where Vicki was. Vicki was a runner as well? She's a runner, yep, yep. I said was a runner and still is, that's great. Yeah, and then when I moved back home after college, I got more involved with the local running community that I had already been a part of before I left. What was the? The Howard County Striders. Okay. And I started, you know, got onto their board of directors and then became the race director of a couple different races. Then I started, I got this phone call one evening right after Tiffany was born that my high school coach wanted to retire and thought that it would be really great if my wife and I would take over for him and work with him for a couple years and that kind of thing. And I couldn't believe it. That was just the dream for me. Were you working a different job at that point? I was a small business lender for a bank. So I was in the banking world and that didn't quite work. regarding practice times for high school sports. So it was a tough decision. We tried to figure out how to make it work and we did. We just made it work. And then we started having the high school kids practice a little later, more like at 4 .30, five o 'clock instead of typically your 2 .30, three o 'clock type scenario. And it just worked out. And Vicki and I got to do that together for 23 years. Wow. And...

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24.206) And then in that process, we had our second child and my two daughters started running and that created... walking. Daughters started running instead of walking. Right into it, right into it. And then luckily, they both ended up running. We moved into the neighborhood. I bought my parents' house is what we did and my oldest daughter wanted to go to the school that I was coaching at and ran for. We moved back home, if you will, and did that at Oakland Mills for... eight straight years, my girls are four years apart, that was pretty great. And in that process, in that timeframe is where the real estate crisis of 2008 and 2009 happened. You were still a lender at that point? I was. Okay. Not in the home building or mortgage side of it, I was the small business side with other companies, but the small bank that I worked for, K Bank, unfortunately had a lot of loans to the small home builders and went out of business. So... I had to, a very hard decision to make. I had to go get a new job and leave all the people that I had worked with who had very much supported me in all this other stuff that I do or try something different. And that's when Bullseye Running started. So, a lot of prayer, a lot of discussion with my wife, a lot of looking at the finances. Still had two girls in school, right, coming up, getting ready to go to college. probably getting married, one's married now, the other's maybe one day. So we had expenses for sure that we knew were coming and that kind of thing. And it was a tough road for a little while, but we decided to give it a go and we started Bullseye Running. running over lending since that's a kind of a funny joke I'm going to use since your daughter and myself work in a lending now. But talk to us about, you know, I guess the birth of Bullseye Running and what it was and what maybe what you hoped it would be because later we'll talk about what it is now. Yeah. So in that time where I was with the Howard County Striders, I had also taken over their youth program and their youth program was it was doing fine. You know, there there's some volunteer, you know, parents and people coaching and leading that. And.

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34.254) and Vicki and I were doing the high school thing, but our girls started running and we kind of knew there were some other opportunities for our girls and the team. So we started helping out a little bit with that and then I kind of ended up taking it over, not pushing anyone out, but just because it was growing and it needed more attention. And we had that as the... basis of where we were going to move forward with this bullseye running thing. The focus was providing opportunity for kids and that's where the mission of bullseye running has always been. So we knew we could grow that program if it was full -time attention to it. Grow the youth program. The youth program. And therefore, you have a couple dollars at the end of the day. Never going to get rich running. Made a lot more money in the banking industry. But I needed to make a few more dollars. So we bought some road race timing equipment and started doing some of that. And then while we were doing that, some of the guys that were helping me with that really liked the track timing even more. than the road race timing. And explain to the viewers, I mean, because I have a son who runs, when you're a youngster trying to maybe run in college, you need to run races that have actual, I guess, certified track timing equipment in order to have your time certified for college coaches, etc. Yeah, it's called FAT, fully automatic timing. And they're so... A lot of the races when I was growing up, certainly the coaches or the different volunteers would be standing on the sideline with a stopwatch and all that kind of thing. And those were pretty good, right? And fairly reliable, but not as technology has gone on and not as college coaches are looking at real details. There's definitely, especially in the sprinting world, the sprinting world, a half a second.

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33.486) in the miles, maybe not a big deal, a half a second being wrong on the stopwatch in a hundred yard dash is remarkably terrible, right? So it has to be right. So yeah, there's some special equipment that's used and it's not cheap, but it's also not super easy to use. Once you start using it and you figure out how to do it, it's not too, too hard, but I have surrounded myself with the right people. And they help steer me. I certainly have my visions, but I also know, as I found out in high school, I can't do it all by myself. I want a team and I want to go where we want to go, not just where I want to go. That's a great way to... Did everybody hear that? Where we want to go, the whole team, not where I want to go. I love that. So, know, so stay in the history there. So Bullseye had some road equipment. Now we're starting to edge our way into track and what's happening to them. That was a, as it turns out, that was probably the biggest jump forward for us. The youth program has gone from 50 kids to 400 in the track season and 300 in the cross country season and about 800 total kids. Right now. Different. Today in 2024. Yeah, so that's the biggest piece probably to the financial puzzle, if you will, and where my focus is. But the other big, the second biggest piece that has changed for us is, is the track timing because there is a, there's track meets every day. You know, there's not road races every day. There's road races every weekend, but there's literally track meets every day. So, you know, we got to a point where we're being asked to time pretty much every day. And Mostly in the mid Atlantic region. Yep. So we, yeah, we've timed in, we've timed in Virginia, DC, Maryland, Delaware, and Pennsylvania, but we - Indoor and outdoor track. Indoor and outdoor, yeah. But mostly as time has gone, we've just tried to focus it down into Maryland and just try to do, just try to, you know, we all have families and we all have other things that we do. So for a little while, I was, we were trying to take over the world, it seemed like, but then we've all agreed maybe it's best to keep the A team together. And, you know, we like working with each other. So sometimes we would try to go to two or three different meets on the same day.

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55.438) and we've decided that's probably good from a business standpoint or a financial standpoint, but it wasn't good for us individually and as a team. I love that, Tibbs. Everybody hear that? Keep the A team together and stay more focused. We had more fun and we were the best when we were all together. It's a big lesson there. Yeah, so luckily I don't have to push the business too far from a financial standpoint. The expenses are managed pretty low and I just have to take care of my people for the most part. As long as we're doing a great job at the events we're at, I think the requests will continue to come. And then the reality is with all of that being said is I have to say no. I have to say no. When there's a scenario that comes up that I'm looking at, I said it yesterday. We had four meets on a week coming up in April and there was a request coming in for a fifth one and I looked at the calendar and I talked to my timer guy and I was like, I'm not comfortable with this. This is gonna push us, this is gonna push us, we're gonna get stressed, right? This is gonna be a little too much. A lot of people in business will never wanna say no. And I didn't wanna say no for a long time and my timer guys don't wanna say no typically either. And that's, I think, why we're a good team, though. We've gotten to the point where we've been able to have that tough discussion with each other and know that we need to be having fun and we need to be doing this together. And if you can't provide the level of service, everybody, that you're used to providing to any customer in any business, you're better off saying no than not delivering. Yeah, no, exactly. And so we've learned some lessons over the time and we're gonna make sure. that our focus is to have fun and do it 100 % perfect every time. I love that, I love that. So as far as growth of the company, and so this podcast is about business and growth, marketing, sales, how it went. Historically, was it word of mouth for you? What is your sales story? Talk to us a little bit about that. You had a vision for the company and it slowly accumulated. How did you get there? Yeah, no, I think when you take a...

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13.262) You think a youth program that was having some parents kind of chipping in and volunteering when they could to having a full -time person working at 24 -7, if you will, it has allowed me to provide a lot of tentacles to that thing. And a lot of people are getting opportunity to do something that they didn't want to do. And my wife reminded me at one point because as that was growing and as more kids were able to participate, I was worried that I was twisting people's arms about coaching. When you have more kids, you gotta have more coaches, right? You know, I had a kid who backed his way into running in eighth grade and fell in love with it and turned out to be pretty good at it. We were just fortunate that he had a great high school coach at the school where he was gonna go. These youth programs back then didn't really exist. Or if they did, he didn't know about them. We didn't know about them. I certainly didn't know about youth, Little League youth running, right, back in the day. And then, luckily, I found out about it from my girls and got involved with it and I've helped to grow it. And like you said, you need a good coach wherever you are. So I've been able to ask some people to be a part of this and you know a few of them. and they are fantastic. But luckily for me, I'm not, my wife reminded me, you know, some people want to coach. They actually want to coach. So you having this program and having it as big as it is, it's allowing people to coach as well. So that was a helpful piece for me, because a lot of times I was feeling like I was begging people to... help me with this program and whatever. The kids that you coached five years ago are now of age to give back and I see a lot of that in the running community. And there are plenty of, even the high school kids want to come out and volunteer. That were, you know, with the youth program when they were in middle school or whatever and they want to come and just support the program. But like you said, we've had several people that I've coached over the years that have come back and are part of the program.

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22.83) And even some of them are even old enough that they have kids now that are in the program too. So that's pretty fantastic. Well, longevity and consistency is something we talk about all the time. Your consistency is now building upon itself. For sure. But with the timing business, how did that, talk to us about how that grew from its infancy till now. Yeah, so there's a great piece to that puzzle. So as we were moving into the track timing world a little bit more, That kind of really was happening because of one of the guys that I have working for me. Ben Thomas is, he's a coder by nature and created live results for Trek and that kind of thing. And you, as you remember probably when Owen started running, there was some paper sheets taped up on a wall you'd have to go over and look at and, you know, see how your kid did. And now, You don't have to do that anymore, right? You're sitting in the stands and you just look at your phone and when he crosses the finish line, his name pops up and his time's there and his place and maybe even a PR if he ran his best time ever, right? So that's my guy, Ben. My guy, Ben, did that and he created that whole live results app and ended up selling it to athletic .net, which is a West Coast company, but they have this... this piece, athletic .live, which is now creating all these live results. And timers across the world are using them now, not just here in Maryland. But he got the... Hold on, written and provided by a Bullseye employee originally. Yeah. So yeah, he stepped out of his real job for a year and just did his coding on this thing and worked for me. And... You know, we kind of, you know, he used our meats to, you know, as the guinea pig for it. And it was fantastic. It was really neat. And, you know, it is funny, some of the kids in Howard County and at the private schools here in Baltimore, they get that every time and all the time. And sometimes they'll go away to college and some of the college meats don't even have it yet. You know, some, they're getting there, but not all of them have it yet. So, yeah, having the...

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34.43) Having that extra piece really was... I mean, part of the story I didn't know Bullseye is that big of an innovator within the entire running community. I've been blessed to have so many different people a part of what I'm trying to do and certainly Ben's opportunity to create his athletic .live. piece has been really amazing to have it connected with us here at Bullseye Running. That's great. That's great. So what's your, what does your day -to -day look like, Phil, these days with it? I mean, you've got a pretty healthy roster or schedule, I should say, of events that you guys are timing. So your business, your calendar is filled, you know, and you've got the, you've got the youth program, you've got this diversified business. What's a, what's a Phil Lang day look like? Yeah, my... So I'm not a morning person, so most runners are. I thought all runners are morning people. runners are, as we both chimed in there together on that topic, but I've never been. So luckily, I get to sleep in, and then I get up and I answer all the stuff that had come in from the emails that I sent last night. So I work late into the night sometimes. And... You send out emails. My track kids' parents have questioned me quite often on emails coming out at one in the morning and things of that nature. But if I send them out at one in the morning, then when I wake up in the morning, I have all my answers. Because as a coach, you're telling your athletes to get to bed early and get a good night's sleep. I do. So hopefully the parents aren't sharing with them when these emails have timestamps. But... But so, you know, this morning I got up and I looked at what came in this morning and was able to keep the ball rolling on a couple different things. One of the meets were timing in May, had some questions about the setup in the computer about how to limit it to three kids per event and things of this nature. So we went in and played with that and fixed that for them. And I had a couple kids that, you know, the youth program for the spring is starting up and I've...

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42.318) couple kids that moved on to a different team a year or two ago and I try to keep in touch with those kids as well and just reminded their parents that our program is starting back up again in case for whatever reason they'd want to come back. But you just, I don't want to burn bridges and I want to keep opportunities available for these kids. I want to make sure that they know things are going on. Never burn bridges. Always keep all opportunities open. Yeah, there's no reason to do that. And, and, uh, And then we got some road races that are coming up. Right now, February's a little slow on the running front. It's cold outside, not a lot of races and that kind of thing. But you gotta be planning for what's coming, right? So just getting ready for the spring, which is a pretty busy time for us. We're gonna have, like I said, four meets a week sometimes, and we got practices two times a week. And... Some road racers sprinkled in there as well. Phil, from a marketing perspective, and I don't know if you knew I was gonna bring this up, but tell me about Bullseye Bob. Yeah, so this is the little mascot that has become Bullseye Bob. So we had a... By the way, everybody, even Bullseye Bob on the back, he's got his own jersey. Yeah. Yeah, we had some kids on the youth team years back ask what our mascot was, as most teams have a mascot, right? But running teams don't. A lot of the adult running clubs don't really have necessarily a mascot. And so I was like, hmm. And so anyway, this came about. My friend Ben and I went out to Wyoming to run a big trail race. And... well out there found a prairie dog and he holds it up and he goes, I think this should be your mascot. So I was like, sure bullseye. Not native to Maryland, despite the fact that everything else in your business is native to Maryland. Yeah, this was found in Wyoming. So I have no idea why, but it kind of became our little mascot and we kind of have rolled with it.

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52.728) He only comes out for special occasions, but it has become part of the branding piece to both. People that see you on Instagram see Bob quite frequently? Not a lot, but at the big events. At the big events. And he was probably used more in the past than he is in the current. But no, he loves to go to the podium. So whenever the kids do well at the national meets in particular. And we've had a few national champions. We've had a few team champions. Our 11, 12 boys won the AU team title in cross country this year. Well, that's, you know, the name of the podcast is How They Crushed It. Those kids are absolutely crushing it, right? They did. We were quite pleased that day. muddy crazy day but highlighted by getting to hold up the trophy. That's phenomenal. But Bullseye Bob got to go to the podium and he likes to do that. And do the kids, so you got this part of the business, the youth program, do the kids rally around Bob? So yeah, well the ones who know about him because he doesn't come out every day but the ones who know about him are, they think it's a... pretty cool thing to get to hold Bob or take a picture with Bob, yeah. Well, the mystery of Bob is that he's sort of like Oz, hiding behind the curtain sometimes. He's not out all the time. I'm a 56 -year -old guy, and carrying around a little stuffed animal could be viewed as strange. Strange in a good way, most times. I'm going to go with the Wizard of Oz theory there. I like where you went with that. Well, I love the story, Phil. I mean, this is phenomenal, because you have a... You have a business that's a little different than like something, not that I know what normal or standard is, but it's kind of like Warren Buffett says, you know, get into a business that has a big moat around it, a high barrier to entry that others can't just come and compete with you. And you've got this kind of special thing that you've grown and everybody, at least in the running community, everybody knows Bullseye. Yeah, no, it's, it is very different. And I think that was the hard part for me at the beginning when I was...

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00.526) thinking about doing something like this. I actually reached, I didn't even know that you could have a job in the running industry, kind of like, you know, anything like this. And so I reached out to a few people that I knew that had done that across the country. There were about five or six different people I reached out to and just kind of asked them, what is, like, how do you do that? You know, I've been a volunteer for 20 -something years. I was being a volunteer with all the different, you know, their youth program, the road race directing, all that stuff. You know, it was just volunteer stuff. And so they're like, you know, if you really, if you know what you're doing, you're an expert at it. And experts get paid to do things. Yeah, and that was They were telling you this before you knew anything. Well, before I had started my own thing, but just being that volunteer for all those years, They're like, Phil, you could do that. And if you did it more full -time than part -time as a volunteer, that would be a win -win for our community. And so it at least allowed me to take that first step forward. And I gave it a shot. And now the question is, I'm still friends with all my bankers and people like that. And I'm... there's not a chance I'm going back. Running over banking, like we said that earlier. But you know, it's funny, our last guest, on our last podcast, he runs a small restaurant in a community, not in downtown Baltimore. And he said it had to be a win -win for the community. He said the same thing. And I think that's a big takeaway for me. So it was funny, Phil, I almost called you Bob a second ago with Bob sitting right here. But, We at our company at Direct Mortgage Loans, we have a little internal saying that it's called Run DML because we all, we try to aspire to the fact that everybody in the company's helping run the company. But, you know, since we can use this multiple ways, we wanted to give you a Run DML t -shirt, because I don't know if there's anybody that should have a Run DML t -shirt, you know, literally run DML than you. So please take that with you and work it into the running rotation. I certainly will. I certainly will. Thank you very much.

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03.79) Yeah, so the last segment we always like to do is, and I think this is important, and by the way, a lot of great nuggets, thank you. A lot of great little lessons in here, especially the win -win for the community. But we like to ask people right now in February of 2024, forget about the story and how you got here and what you did, and that was a lot of hard work to get there and what you might have as a long -term plan, but what are you doing right now in today's environment that you really feel like is helping your business? You know, topical, tactical. 2024, you know, that, you know, with the economy in the world the way it is, what's going on right now that's helping you guys? Yeah, the topic that keeps coming up for me is facilities and indoor track in particular. There seems to be a real need for another facility in this state for the indoor track specifically. And again, it's because I think this sport has grown so much and, you know, I... There's been discussion about it in Howard County, there's been discussion about it in Frederick County, and we're holding out hope that somewhere additional facilities come into play. And the facilities are needed outside too, right? So a lot of the high schools have their own track and we can get access to them occasionally through the rec and parks or the school systems. But some of them are needing more attention and we're hoping that the... the wear and tear and the overgrowth of some things and when those facilities are managed well for the sport that is continuing to grow. And 2024 is a special year because it's an Olympic year and there's already been some commercials I've seen on TV, you know, hyping up the Olympics and that kind of thing. And track and field every four years really does become an even bigger boom in our middle industry. It's It's a fun thing to watch at the Olympics. And we have some really great US athletes. So this weekend, there will be the US Olympic Marathon Trials, Dan and Orlando, which I'll be very excited to watch on TV tomorrow. Bullseye is not timing that one. We are not. That would be worth going to Orlando for, for sure. But we certainly look forward to 2024, having an extra boost to the running community.

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25.326) I think more people will get out and run. So every four years we seem to tend to see that. So 2024 leads to that for sure. Oh, that's cool. Well, look, if anybody watching this, how can they find out more about Bullseye? Give us your websites, give us talk to us about how they get in touch with you. Yeah, it's www .bullseyerunning .com. And when you go to the front page, you'll see that there's... you know, the running of the road racing events that are coming up that will be timing or listed there. The Temma Club Challenge race is coming up at the end of February. If you wanted to join the club and participate in that event, you could do that. And then if you hit the youth running second link there, there's a couple of different programs we have. So some of the people that I've run with in college or back in the day are living in different counties and have started up little bulls like youth teams as well. One out in Cumberland, one in Frederick County, one in Harford County, and one in Anne Arundel County. So they're kind of little tentacles to what I got going on. And then I'm part owner of the Feet First running shoe store as well. So we have two stores, one in Sykesville and one in the main ones in Columbia. So yeah, so you should be able to Who's I, Bob, does not go to Feet First though? He's been there. He's been there, yeah. He definitely pops in there every once in a while. Gotcha. Yeah. And I have a question I want to end with this. I told your daughter, right now today, since we're talking about today, who's faster right now, you or Tiffany? I can beat her today. I can beat her today. She unfortunately is having some knee pain and such, but she has beaten me. I heard there was proof, there's one photo that exists. We were on the, yeah, so we were in this race just before we went on vacation this one summer. and the local newspaper took a picture of these two people finishing and it was her just in front of me and that's what ended up in the Is it framed anywhere in the house? It's not in my house, it might be in hers. It should be. I ought to tell her that. It be. Well look, Phil, thanks so much for coming in. This was great. Look, Phil's got a business, everybody. He's crushing it and look, a lot of great little nuggets here. Win -win for the community. Always give back. You know, think.

Direct Mortgage Loans (33:

43.274) volunteering led to this. He created an expertise without any business plan. And keep your eyes and ears open to the things you're involved in. It's an exciting story. And look, check out Bulls Eye Running. And if you go to one of their events and you race in one of their events, here's our boy. Ask for him. I mean, that'd be fun. Reference the podcast and look for Phil. But thanks for coming, my friend. Yes, you're welcome. See you next time, everybody.

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Dean Johnson

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